Aontaithe san éagsúlacht

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Aontaithe san éagsúlacht

by Rampage ^team @ Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 – 14:04:47

A few weeks ago, I had a very interesting conversation with my former blog colleague Phillippe. We talked a lot about our national identities, and how we fit into modern Europe. I've been formulating this post ever since.

I, for one, have always had problems with seeing myself as an Irishman. I don't have the groundless pride that many of my nationality do, and I am more than aware of what I have missed out on by having had my childhood education in Ireland, rather than in a more open and forward-thinking European nation. I am quick to publicise the frailties that exist and have existed in Irish society, and to criticise the close-mindedness and isolationism that these have bred in a large number of Irish people.

That said, there are parts of being Irish that I love. I love the positive reaction that it gets from people of other nationalities, every time. I love the country itself - when out the raw, rugged landscape I feel truly Irish and truly at home. I love the language and the rich history and how countless brave men and women gave their lives so that I can call myself an Irishman.

However when thinking of the things I love, my focus keeps getting broken by negatives that make me almost spit with rage. The Catholic Church with its 'holier-than-thou' attitude, which ruined lives, some very close to my own. How Irish people's personal freedoms were so shockingly restricted by archaic thinking disguised as righteousness. Contraceptives? Banned until 1979, only available with prescription until 1985. Homosexuality? Banned until 1993, when the European courts were forced to intervene. Divorce? Banned until 1997.

On my passport, at the very top, it states that I am a citizen of the European Union. Below that, it says I am a citizen of Ireland. This is ranking order that seems fitting to me.
I am a proud Irishman, but a very proud European. I am proud to have experienced the flair and cultural heritage from my time in Italy. I am equally proud to experience the German honesty, directness and work ethic.

I'm not saying that everything in Europe is perfect. I just feel that my time spent here has made me into a person I am happy to be. This is something that I feel could simply not have happened just living in Ireland.
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- germany
- italy
- europe
- ireland
- divorce
- contraception
- homosexuality
- catholic church

54 Comments to Aontaithe san éagsúlacht

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- kendersrule ^Pro
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:13:52
**HUGS**
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- subville
- http://subville.blog.co.uk/
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:16:47
WHAT? 1997!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really had no idea about that.

*utterly gobsmacked*
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:17:56
  Yep. The referendum was in 1995, legislation came through in 1997. It's still quite hard to get divorced.
  - - subville
    - http://subville.blog.co.uk/
    - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:26:33
    Soz, I wasn't meaning to skip the whole point. I know what you mean about back home. I'm not so eloquent though. I'd just say I love it and hate it
    
    My grandad was such a staunch SNP dude, too. Jim Mitchell at his funeral and the St Andy's flag draped an' all that. A wee bit racist, it must be said.
    
    I think I'll get more nostalgic for Scotland as I get older. Every other country seems to love Scotland too, which is sweet. Even if we get the consta-jokes about being stingy and all the guff about Broon
    - - Rampage ^team
      - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:32:02
      Haha, no worries!
      
      I'll definitely get nostalgic as time goes by. I know there'll be a point when I'll have to live back there, be it for family reasons or otherwise.
      
      We are lucky though, Ireland and Scotland are usually seen in a very positive light.
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- soyunperdedor ^Pro
- http://soyunperdedor.blog.co.uk
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:26:08
I think you're one of the most well-rounded individuals I've ever met - no, I don't mean your beer-belly - and I imagine most of it comes from the opportunities you've had in Europe. Don't forget though that YOU gave yourself these experiences by leaving your country in the first place, which is terrifying to me.

But please, leprechaun-man, don't let us down with the stereotypes we all love. Drink, swear at us for being English and for breathing too loud, and dance a merry jig on your way to each pub, eating four-leaf clovers as a beer snack.
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:34:06
  Drink, feck, arse, girls!
  
  Don't worry, you can take the man out of Ireland and all that...
  
  Oh, and thank you for the wonderful compliment. *big hug*
  - - Old-Nick ^Pro
    - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:02:36
    No matter how well rounded you may be, you are still a very bad looser......apparently.
    - - Rampage ^team
      - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:07:45
      No I FUCKING am NOT!
      
      *smashes bottle against wall*
      
      Ahem. You may be right.
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- Jenniebaby
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:31:11
National identity is very difficult, I think.

I don't mind saying that I'm British - it's just a fact, after all, but I DO have a problem with being 'English'... It has so many negative connotations and I feel like there's very little to be proud of.
I also think it's a little bit pedantic, and probably downright inaccurate - for me and for most people... I was born in England, as was my dad, but my mum is from Wales with Welsh and N Irish parents and my dad's parents and grandparents were variously born and brought up in Scotland.

I wish that we were single currency Europeans - I think I's like to be a proper citizen of Europe
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 14:38:45
  I wish Britain was in the Eurozone too, changing currency is so irritating.
  
  It is strange though how it's OK for certain nationalities to be proud and others not. Sure, history plays are role, but it is in the past, after all...
  
  I would love it if Europe 'merged' to the extent that the UK has. Most Brits are part-Scottish, part-Welsh, part-English, etc, and most are still aware and proud of the differences that that entails. I feel really honoured to be part of a generation of Europeans that are interacting more and more with their neighbours.
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 21:47:29
    I agree with the certain nationalities feeling proud or not; among the kids that I'm teaching, there's a real lack of pride for being German.
    - - antlady69 ^Pro
      - http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
      - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:00:47
      a.) Too many things wrong in GE to be proud of the country.
      
      b.) Unfortunately, national pride can change to extreme forms only too easily. Just look at the past, or at the US at the moment.
      
      A small amount of national pride is probably ok, but too much leads to too many problems, I think.
      - deleted user (Visitor)
        
        Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:30:34
        
        I agree with those points, but I decided to try and least persuade my class to show a little pride - didn't work!
        
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        antlady69 ^Pro
        
        http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
        
        Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 14:16:27
        
        Maybe they're still too young?
        
        I think it takes time to understand and experience the good things in your own country (leading to some sort of patriotism), but that also takes some reasonable comparisons with other countries. And all of that requires a certain maturity, I believe
        
        Maybe you can make a list - with their participation - of all the good things in the UK and in GE, as a way of comparing the two countries
        
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        deleted user (Visitor)
        
        Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 20:07:30
        
        Maturity? Whats that then !
        
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    - - Rampage ^team
      - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:41:43
      You're right, it's not really allowed though and generally frowned upon. It's quite understandable.
      
      During the World Cup though, everyone was proud - flags and German colours everywhere. Bus as soon as it ended, everything went back to normal. It was quite strange, a little pocket of patriotism.
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- EllieGant
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:02:06
A really thought-provoking post, Rampage. Like, JennieBaby I am British rather than English but I am proud my roots and heritage. But I feel more European, and wish we'd fully integrate rather than this half-baked approach.

(BTW why did the font size shrink after your conversation with Soy??)
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:05:07
  I think Britain and Ireland are definitely more reluctant than the rest of Europe to integrate. It really is a pity, we stand to gain so much from it.
  
  I did the font shrink on purpose - just write 'small' with <and > on either side and without the inverted commas.
  
  EDIT: Just realised I forgot to close it so it affected everyone's comments after mine...silly me!
  - - Jenniebaby
    - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:11:10
    Actually, wit the current economic climate, sterling and the euro are getting so close to the same value, that now would probably be a great time to change
    
    Who should I speak to?
    - - Rampage ^team
      - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:12:46
      I'll let Germany know that Britain is ready to make the move.
      - antlady69 ^Pro
        
        http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
        
        Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:02:00
        
        *BOL*
        
        That would probably start another war!
        
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- Old-Nick ^Pro
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:03:17
Remember - No matter where you go, there you are.

Or summink.
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 15:08:38
  Just as well I am not trying to escape from me then.
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- LandersUK
- http://www.iamlanders.com
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 16:54:29
I love how countries "ban" homosexuality! As if it's something you can control.

I love some of the countries in Europe but I hate the European Union (the governing body) with a passion and I will never consider myself European - which is just as well as I'm not! Ha! - because of the way the EU try and control everything an the way they just let any old country in as long as it can be connection the EU in some way. It won't be long before China is part of the EU!
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 20:03:19
  I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
  
  Without the EU, Ireland would still be a farming-based rural backwater, and I am eternally grateful for the opportunities that have come my way because of it.
  - - LandersUK
    - http://www.iamlanders.com
    - Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 20:08:47
    See, as selfish as it is, I go by what the EU has done for me and my family... which is nothing good... apart from allowing me to move anywhere within it without having to fill out piles and piles of paperwork or apply for visas. I still don't like the EU though because other than the above they been a pain in the backside of me and my family for years.
    - - Rampage ^team
      - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:44:43
      It's not selfish, it's the only test you can really apply. I don't give a shit that some farmer in Romania might be better off. I just know that free university education probably wouldn't have happened in Ireland without the EU, and I doubt very much that my family could have afforded to send both my sister and I to uni.
      
      Doesn't even bear thinking about where I would be or what sort of person I would be in that circumstance - I like to think I would still have managed to escape but it would have been a hell of a lot harder.
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- QueeneMab
- Thursday, Nov. 27, 2008 @ 21:25:21
As a second generation Irish person living in the UK I share many of your views. I like Ireland for a holiday but could not live there.

I love many things about Ireland particularly the scenary but there are many good reasons as you have stated, not just the weather, why people left it years back. Now I have to say I think it is very forward thinking though.

It is interesting that Ireland adopted the Euro but England hasn't.

I like to think of myself as a European citizen rather than Irish, British or whatever.

X
- - Rampage ^team
  - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:46:16
  It is still a restricted sort of forward thinking. I find there is still a lot of suspicion about foreigners, although that is almost to be expected since the immigration exploded so quickly.
  
  I salute you, fellow European!
  - - QueeneMab
    - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 21:00:06
    I think that may be true sadly.
    
    X
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- antlady69 ^Pro
- http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
- Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:15:58
I whole-heartedly agree with you. We can always learn from others without losing our own identity. But this way we all would become more open-minded.

Every country has a so much to give, and it's great to absorb other opinions or learn other actions - or seeing their mistakes.

You've really been lucky to experience so many different worlds! ~~I soooo envy you~~

Many folks in my area, for example, are very narrow-minded. They know nothing about others and often see them as a danger. Which is BS, of course.
But you can't really blame them. They just haven't had much interaction with other nationalities and therefore can't appreciate them.

All I can say is: "Long live travelling"!
- - antlady69 ^Pro
  - http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
  - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:17:08
  Er - disregard the very first "But" (3rd sentence), please!
  - - Rampage ^team
    - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:49:43
    I really have been unthinkably lucky.
    
    I very much agree with you - with people who are narrow-minded, it's usually the circumstance rather than the person who is to blame.
    
    Although, that said, I am against the idea of travelling for the sake of it, which is what a lot of people do. There is very little to be gained from passing though a city for a couple of days; it's important to be willing to make a serious effort to integrate.
    - - antlady69 ^Pro
      - http://antmusic-forever.blog.co.uk
      - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 14:07:42
      Oh yes, you're right! Germans travelling all over the world and then demanding that they be served Schnitzel and Pommes rot-weiß! Stupid!
      
      That's why I love to go on guided walking tours or complete guided trips to other countries. You learn so much about the other place, things that you would never find out about without the guide. (hmm, lots of "outs")
      
      Just wait till you get to India (things should have calmed down again by then)
      - Rampage ^team
        
        Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 23:43:39
        
        I can't wait. Normal life is distracting me from the main business of being excited about India.
        
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- deleted user (Visitor)
- Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:31:08
My passport might not say it, but my family background makes me feel proud to be an Ulsterman!!
- - Rampage ^team
  - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:50:38
  Passport is irrelevant!
  
  I feel Irish, German, and Italian, but my passport only proves one of them. (for now, anyway! )
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:53:18
    In that case, I feel Andorran !
    - - Rampage ^team
      - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 13:56:30
      Is that because of your footballing abilities?
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- rowtheboat
- http://rowtheboat.blog.co.uk/
- Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 15:35:13
I find the concept of identity fascinating, perhaps because my background makes me more aware than most how multifaceted our identities really are. Personally, I feel as though I've grown into my identity - when I was a kid, I thought of myself as English first and foremost, but perhaps that was a challenge to those in the world who didn't see me that way, and also a response to having an alternative background that I didn't really know enough about to claim as mine.

Now I do know more about my roots and heritage - although still not as much as I'd like to - and I feel proud to have allegiances with different cultures and histories.

Of course, now all I need is to marry a half-Argentine, half-Russian and continue with our family's quest for global domination
- - Rampage ^team
  - Friday, Nov. 28, 2008 @ 23:52:38
  I am very jealous of your background. Curse my worthless 100% Irishness!
  
  Make sure you Russian/Argentine has a hot sister...
  - - rowtheboat
    - http://rowtheboat.blog.co.uk/
    - Sunday, Nov. 30, 2008 @ 18:11:11
    That would make us relatives, of a sort - you sure you're ready for that?
    
    Either that, or it would make you the heartless casanova who shagged and deserted my Russian/Argentine's poor younger sister. Honestly, what are you trying to do to me?
    - - Rampage ^team
      - Tuesday, Dec. 02, 2008 @ 13:32:58
      What do you think I am? A Russian/Argentine couldn't be anything other than hot hot hot!
      
      And even if not, I'd stick around for linguistic reasons, and my wonderful sister-in-law.
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- deleted user (Visitor)
- http://menomamauk.blog.co.uk
- Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008 @ 14:42:56
The constant rain in Ireland would do me in. It is a beautiful country though and has some lovely people there.

I must say that I love being Canadian. I am especially proud to tell folks I am Canadian when I am traveling.

Hugs
- - Rampage ^team
  - Sunday, Nov. 30, 2008 @ 14:27:51
  Haha, I think you just spent too much time in the West - it rains so much more there.
  
  Canadian is a great nationality too, people only think positively of Canada.
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- Miza-T
- Sunday, Nov. 30, 2008 @ 12:51:29
We learn something new everyday and I love it!
And yes when you travel and live in different places you understand better the world and people in general.
I knew about the Irish strictness about divorce, homosexuals,etc...

I din't know you had your own language!
I'm so sorry! I'm sure I've seen the word "Eire" before, it all makes sense to me now

And I still don't know why is that Irish people from Northern Ireland and Ireland hate each other!

When I left Portugal, I was ashamed of being Portuguese.
Somehow I changed, and I am now proud of my country and heritage.

xx
- - Rampage ^team
  - Sunday, Nov. 30, 2008 @ 14:24:52
  Yep,we have our own language, it's beautiful but amazingly difficult. I wish I could speak it better.
  
  As for the troubles in the North, it'd take far too long to explain. Let's just say that there are very few people who feel hate over it, and the ones that do are motivated by religion and general bigotry and sectarianism.
  
  I know what you mean about feeling shame about your natonality - a bit of distance helps with that though.
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- letterfromthailand
- Wednesday, Dec. 03, 2008 @ 16:21:57
"I am more than aware of what I have missed out on by having had my childhood education in Ireland, rather than in a more open and forward-thinking European nation."

That's quite interesting, mainly by virtue of the fact that it's pretty much the exact opposite of what I think about my own education in Ireland Although there were a few too many nuns around my school, I was given the chance to go to university and to go on and do a masters degree for free. In fact, because I came from a roughish sort of area and a school with no real record of academic achievement, I was actually paid to go to third level. I think the most forward thinking thing a nation can do is try and bring about equality of opportunity in education and while there is a long way to go in Ireland, I'm not sure there are that many European countries which would have come to the rescue in the way that the Irish system did for me.
- - Rampage ^team
  - Thursday, Dec. 04, 2008 @ 14:11:03
  Hmm, interesting!
  
  Still though, those opportunities would almost certainly not have been available were it not for Ireland's membership of the EU; that's where the money came from. I also benefitted enormously from it, my family wouldn't have been able to send both my sister and I to university without it. I'm hugely grateful too, and in that sense I agree with you 100%.
  
  I was referring more to my secondary school education in a single-sex Catholic school, taught by priests. The whole thing was so utterly backward and I strongly feel that it retarded me as a person. It's no-ones fault, they were all good men and did the best they could, but I believe that school should be preparing kids for life and no Catholic priest is in a position to be able to do that.
  
  When I compare Irish teenagers to the German or Italian ones that I work with so much, they are clearly a lot less mature - in Ireland there's still a lot of 'kids should be seen and not heard', whereas in Europe kids are treated as equals from a much earlier age, with the result that they settle into themselves and their opinions at a much earlier age.
  
  Anyway, I could go on about this for hours, but I should stop now.
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- letterfromthailand
- Monday, Dec. 08, 2008 @ 13:05:24
Ah i follow. I'd definitely agree with regard to secondary schools in Ireland - there's no two ways about it - in this day and age they should be completely secular and students suffer because they're not. I think every country has positives and negatives in their education system and it's only by airing the bad that things will continue to improve.

Also, it's taken as a given by many that the EU is responsible for the wealth generated in Ireland. I've my own take on that, but I don't want to be clogging up the comment section of your blog with any more off topic ramblings
- - Rampage ^team
  - Monday, Dec. 08, 2008 @ 13:07:31
  No, hit me with it, I am interested to hear your take on it.
  
  Although I am a big EU fan, I also understand that they are a lot of wanker bureaucrats too, and responsible for a lot of wasting of valuable funds and time.
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- letterfromthailand
- Monday, Dec. 08, 2008 @ 13:38:12
Hmm... well if you're sure....

Basically, the EU have been very generous in the development aid they have given us but the vast majority of it was used in infrastructural projects which were designed to bring us up to European standards. EU standard infrastructure wasn't what brought in the FDI which drove our economy - there were plenty of other options - it was our extremely competitive rate of corporation tax and the productivity of our workforce. That last bit might sound kind of odd but a few years ago we were ranked as the third most productive in the world behind the UK and the US if I recall correctly. It's not because we're super hard workers or anything like that - it's because we get less national holidays and have a longer working year. Either way its spells more working hours per-annual salary for a foreign company looking for somewhere to base themselves.

Another point is that we opened up our national waters to fishermen from outside the EU and the value of the fish taken far, far exceeds the EU development aid we have been given. Overall, the EU have got a good deal out of us. I am pro-EU and I'm glad we joined, but the benefits tend to be overstated while our own contribution normally goes unmentioned.

And don't get me started on the bureaucrats!
- - Rampage ^team
  - Tuesday, Dec. 09, 2008 @ 13:41:13
  Interesting, very interesting. I clearly need to do a little more research before I insult Ireland's role in the EU.
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